It would be really nice if Americans stopped attacking environmental issues BACKWARDS.

Apr 22, 2009 at 11:29 AM
35 comments

Ahhh…electric cars. Clean. Safe. Eco-friendly. These babies don’t produce the noxious gasses that their gasoline driven brethren create. Global warming will abate as the CO₂ levels drop with the ever decreasing population of gasoline-driven automobiles. The consumer will not be beholden to the gas company and their ever-fluctuating prices. National security will improve as we reduce the dependence our nation has on foreign oil imports. It will simply make the Earth a better place. Right?

As Detroit and Japan push forward on the release of new electric plug-in vehicles, we need to reexamine our condemnation of the auto industry as the chief party responsible for global warming. Plug-in vehicles sound great to most Americans because we simply plug them in and “POOF” – no more combustion engine pollution. The problem with electric cars is the myth that they are the solution to our problems.

Americans and the rest of the world face a bigger problem than our vehicles and that is our energy industry. Beyond the obvious stranglehold that oil producing nations have over the world we have big problems. Oil is the BIGGEST energy producer on the planet (not to mention a primary source for plastics). In the US, nearly 40% of ALL energy produced in the country is created by oil and most of that energy produced is done by vehicles.

So what happens when we take all of the power producing vehicles offline and put the burden on our aging power grid? What happens we have to nearly double the capacity of our aging grid? We have to build more power plants.

New power plants will probably result in new coal plants and an increase in the ever-growing demand for coal. Currently, 51% of our electricity comes from coal and that isn’t likely to change anytime soon. People seem to be on a “clean coal” kick to include top Democrats like Obama. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as “clean coal”. No matter how much you scrub the gasses or trap them in underground storage facilities, there is still a host of environmental issues involved like the destruction of mountains, rivers and streams through mountaintop removal mining techniques.

Sadly, renewable energy sources are expensive to install (although the prices are dropping) and the profits are minimal compared to those the energy industry is used to seeing. That means they aren’t truly motivated to implement the cleaner energy sources. Also, the large scale national grids that are plagued by transmission losses and health risks make the sale of energy more profitable; this eliminates their interest in more sustainable, secure and eco-friendly microgrids.

We have attacked our environmental problems in reverse. Rather than addressing the need to double the capacity of electric power production FIRST, we have pushed for the production of vehicles that will drain an already overtaxed system. This will most assuredly result in haphazard regulations and lenient rules that will allow the power industry to expand its production capabilities with cheap, dirty energy.

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Perhaps the solution is not an all or nothing paradigm. Perhaps America wean itself off of oil dependence while slowly upgrading environmental concerns.

Not to be harsh, it is ridiculous to do nothing or to do something that zaps America back into the 19th century by totally eliminating environmental threats completely.

Change has to start somewhere and the first place should be to benefit American National Security and the American Pursuit of Happiness. Secondly to impliment managed paradigms to protect the environment even if there is further short term harm to the environment.

Good post though. I liked reading it.

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I agree.

I don't think electric cars, or the oxymoron "clean coal", are complete or optimal solutions to the problem. I've done a lot of research this past year and I believe there are many technologies, some old and some more recently developed, that can produce more output energy than the required input energy (over-unity technology)... meaning free energy. This idea has been around for a while, but understanding that one can not make profits on a free energy source (namely energy moguls like those following the greed-ridden example of JP Morgan), it's not surprising that such a technology may have been continually suppressed. But there's a growing movement trying to publish this research and share the info/technology before it's too late. This has been made possible in our age thanks to the blessing of the internet, where regulation has not yet been able to stifle knowledge. Anyway, I know many people may have trouble giving this line of thinking a chance, but I hope everyone keeps an open mind.

Here's a site that for a non-profit which is developing some of these technologies right now.

www.theorionproject.org/

And here's an interesting video regarding Nikoli Tesla and the abuse,manipulation, and stifling of such significant inventors and their inventions.

Nikola Tesla - a short video. Really good. Watch it!!!

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Was it in Repo Man that the crazy guy burning stuff in the can said that the more you drive the stupider you are?

coal burning thank's to the marxist in the white house is coming to a end,there are other energy sources out there like the use of algee that can produce more energy then coal or oil,but the real story is that there are alot of product's out there that are waiting for a new energy source that that can produce the amount of enegy needed to power them, nuclear can do it but no one want's a reactor in their backyard. if somebody doesn't come up with the bio-technology soon we will all be using windmills

Have you listened to Obama? Obama supports "clean coal". Yesterday Robert F Kennedy referred to Obama as an "indentured servant" to the coal industry.

no i hadn't heard that ,then he's backpedling he was saying that he was going to shut down as much of the coal burning as he could

Obama's theory is that they will shut down "dirty coal" plants and replace them with "clean coal" plants. He has been saying that for years - no change.

ah you sneaky little liberal you,obama isn't for coal what he is saying is that he's for clean coal which doesn't exist,and he's going to impose heavy fines on dirty coal with effect of putting them out of buisness...it was late last night and i was tired i should have known better.

"Ahhh…electric cars. Clean. Safe. Eco-friendly."

Just for the fun of it, could you tell me the enviromental impact in the production of this car. Take battey technology, look into the environmental hazards with that.

"Obama's theory is that they will shut down "dirty coal" plants and replace them with "clean coal" plants. He has been saying that for years - no change."

Come on you have a brain and it works better than this. President Bush has been updating old coal plants with new technology his entire presidency, I Know I hauled the pieces and in and out the cranes todo the work. Just delivered technological updates for the expansion of the main coal plant suppling Springfield and surrounding areas. The Plant was at full capacity and it looked like it was shut down. Other than the cooling towers in appeared inoperative. Get out of your basements and go look at the real world, it's not what you think it is.

Obama has not been saying anything about col plants for years, he has not had a teleprompter and David Axelrod that long.

The first time I heard Obama speak on "clean coal" is in 2007. Its 2009, so it has been years.

Yes, I know that Bush had power plants being retrofitted for clean coal technology. However, the cleanliness of the plant is irrelevant when you rape the environment with coal extraction. The cleanliness of the plant is irrelevant when a part of the process involves washing the coal to remove sulpher actually creates toxic slurry that contaminates rivers and ground water.

Also, the new plan to trap and store CO2 underground is patently ridiculous. Why would we EVER rely on the coal companies or the energy companies to monitro the CO2 in the ground for several decades? These are people that can't be bothered to clean up the communities they have virtually murdered getting at the coal.

Tell you what, call your energy supplier and tell them to disconnect you. Where do you live? Don't need your address, just city,state, would allow context for your comments

"Obama" Years 2007 its 2009, you must be quite young to consider that YEARS.

jb - as far as I can understand your forceful but misdirected rhetoric, and as far as I can understand the main point of KK's post, it seems clear that you MISSED THE POINT. Tell you what, go back and read the post. Don't need your peripheral bitching details, just go back and get the main point. What was it? You must be too young to remember what it was like in the days when people in a conversation paid attention to what the point was.

Wow, if you consider 33 to be young, I thank you.

Also, the fact that there is more than ONE year means that it is, indeed, yearS. Unless you have developed some new method of pluralizing the passing of 365.25 days. From 2007 to 2009 is TWO yearS. It is not a singluar year unless you have decided to eliminate the year 2008 from the calendar.

As for disconnecting me from the grid - you obviously missed the point. I am not saying that the immediate answer is a complete disconnect from the grid. Hell a disconnect from the coal grid would do much to me as most of my power comes from Fermi II - the Nuclear plant.

The point is this - people are acting like the solution to the environmental crisis is electric cars. Half of these people think that simply plugging in their vehicles eliminates greenhouse gases when, it actually exacerbates the problem based on current technologies.

Disconnecting me from the grid would be pointless but that doesn't mean I am doing nothing. I am actually working with people on a startup company that will expand municipal microgrids that are based on renewable clean technologies. So I am working on the issue. I thought you should know that since you implied I just spent my day complaining and doing nothing.

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Few items of good news, but one of them is that Obama is trying for a high-speed rail that will cover much of the country. Here's the main experiment that should be done: study what would motivate people to start walking and bicycling to work and the stores.

One psychology study found that when people are told, "your neighbors are using less electricity than you", people actually reduced their energy consumption because they heard that lots of other people are doing it. As Sheldon says on The Big Bang Theory, "yes the social sciences are largely hoackum", but we do need to understand what motivates people. After all, we are the problem, not the cars. Cars don't drive themselves.

What we need to do as people is WRITE to the president and tell him we want more high-speed rails and to return the trolley cars to large cities - yeah, trolley cars still use energy but **If we got rid of the roads** in large cities and only allowed electric trolleys like they had in the old days, and much of this transport was affordable for most people, we could elimiante traffic jams and pollution, and poor people could travel farther for work.

We could also install more bike lanes. We should all learn the new terminology: The Fifth Fuel is the best one: Conservation. Using less.

By your picture, you are in my age range.

Take evirovangelism and apply it to your life style, I have no problem with it. Do not presume to think that you know the point either. KK is into renewables and local microgrids, hey a wind turbine on every home along with solar panels covering every roof. All a self contained community tied together with their microgrid, detached from the rest of the world. Grand and glorious.

My position, drill here, drill now, mine here, mine now. Genesis 1:26 Let us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over thr fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.

Yes 33 is young, that was a long time ago for me.

Years to me is 10 or more; under is numbered like 2 years. eg: you have lived for years.

You and I agree on the electric car thing; as I stated earlier the battery manufacturing is an eviromental disaster. However I don't agree with you that there is an environmental crisis.

I never said nor implied you were doing nothing, your venture into Capitalism is wonderful, this is the proper approach, Keep government out of it. Find a way to make money and achieve your environmental goals; and both you and I are happy.

No keep Obama and the Government out of it. If you like high speed rail, start a company sell bonds or stock and build it, make your fortune.

Ahh, but you know and I know, not enough ridership to make it pay. So lets get the government to require it. (LOSS OF LIBERTY).

Even more fun; please point out that part of Article1 sec. 8 which defines the powers of the Federal Government, that gives the Obama or the Congress any role.

My position LIBERTY, bless you and I encourage you to seek your way, but when you seek to have me suffer a loss of liberty or to incur an obligation to you so you can have what you want. I resist

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Well, no disrespect intended dear, but you say there is no environmental crisis. Right away I know that you're basing your ideas on some religious brainwashing or some kind of cult thinking, not science.

Very sad to see someone who has obviously no scientific degree in a relevant field declare that there is no environmental crisis. That's like asking my hairstylist if she thinks I have high blood pressure. She's completely unqualified to answer such a serious question.

And don't forget, liberty can also mean the freedom to travel through a city like Boston without sitting in traffic for 6 hours. I lived in Boston and I returned to the country with asthma and recurring bronchitis. Liberty to me means clean air to breathe - without that, I can never be free.

No, you misinterpert your own thinking. The liberty is the freedom to leave Boston, when a city, a state is repressive leave. If everybody left, the air would clean right up, end of problem.

Now, you charge it takes a scientific degree in a relevant field to have common sense. A failure to be brainwashed is a good thing. At a later date I will post a piece on the subject, and will look forward to a reasoned discussion.

Now, what is this environmental crisis?

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Sadly leaving a polluted city does not cure a disrupted immune system or messed up lungs. To this day I have chronic bronchitis and asthma. Going to a clean town is not a medical procedure which reverses the problem.

"What is this environmental crisis"?

Well JBodine that's like saying, "Well Ellie, please explain how the circulatory system works". I don't have time my friend, nor the space on a comment section.

I realize you want quick explainations given to you by friendly acquaintances, but it took me years, years and years of excruciating geology, earth science, wildlife biology, cell biology, resource inventory, land stewardship, flora, landscape ecology, statistics, soil science, geographic information systems, would you like me to keep going?

How on earth could I explain all that to you in a comment? Sorry, but I'm not paid here to be a teacher. I'm a researcher.

But no offense intended, come up with specific questions and I'm happy to answer, but you may have to read articles. I'm in my second to last semester of grad school.

Please do yourself and everyone else a favor and take an earth systems class. You're a smart guy, you can learn a lot.

Well , now you went and done it, made me go all weepy and feel bad for challenging your mind. As to your lungs and immune system, what I would have to know is how old are you, how long have you suffered with the asthma and bronchitis, is it constant or seasonal? You say chronic, what are your daily symptoms to make that claim? Does increased atmosphoric moisture improve or exacerbate the symptoms? What therapies have you or do you use to cope? Are you interested in dimunition or elimination of the symptoms? Your physical presence would of course make a more conclusive evaluation and regime recommendation possible.

There, some specific questions.

Now, as to how circulatory system works comment; one would need clarification in order to respond to such a question: the blood circulatory system, the lymphatic circulatory system, or the cerebral spinal fluid circulatory system. I already know, I wouldn't ask, and I would not expect you to know the intimate details of these systems; that is not our discussion here.

I sympathize with the rigors of your pursuit. That pursuit if funneling your mind into a setpiece of thought. For you all discussion is in terms of the endoctrination your have pursued. That is suppressing who you are and your own curiosity, you are accepting and not challenging.

I want to tell you that if we met I would probably like you, you have presented yourself with dignity and for internet correspondence that means something. I do believe we could have great debates. I guess you are at a disadvantage as I have a good sense of your knowledge base, and you have not a clue as to mine.

These days, I forget more than I learn,, corresponding with you, David, John and others has given these tired old brain cells a sense on new life. They are slowly recovering their youthful exuberance.

Ha, well the point was not to gain sympathy but rather to clarify myself: what I'm saying is this:

I do not want to be a threadjacker. In case you don't know (I didn't know the term either until just last week), a threadjacker is someone who goes on some nice person's blog (in this case, KatieKat's blog) and holds a long back and forth discussion that changes the subject somewhat.

It is rude.

So I do not want to launch into long explainations about the environment here. You are welcome to look for an enviromnental post on my blog (I do them every five seconds) and comment TO ME, not my neighbors, about where you and I disagree.

I don't want to threadjack any more of Katie's blog. Please feel free to private message me or better yet just comment on one of my environmetnal posts (but not the tree swalllow one, okay)?

ah take it easy katie's a nice girl she won't yell at you

Well this discussion was about power grids and power production. Katie has an business idea, and I think she should persue it. One thing she will encounter is how do you construct a microgrid; yet still be connected to a backup outside power supplier and who would cover the cost of that connection.

An example to explore, as I have done. Thanks to changes to the states laws here (Washington) An individual can produce power and sell it to the Power Supplier (public utility district). You can make your home energy self sufficient and sell the excess. The equipment to protect Utility workers is costly but it is necessary to safeguard them. It shuts down your backfeed if the supplier line is shut down. This same type of protection is required in the microgrid concept. In the event of a problem in the grid all sources will have to go off line instantly.

Please feel free to participate in this engineering concept of microgrids and different comingled powersources. Who owns the power produced by solar panels on your roof connected to the grid? These are some of the issues Katie will need to address. Like I said, I investigated the financial costs and rewards on the single home scale. The same problems exist, 1 home, a community, a city.

I would be very interested to see Katie post updates on her endeaver.

And yes you did somewhat change the discussion, and I apologise to Katie for furthering it. Friends

I agree, I would like to see what you end up doing, Katie. My mom still lives in your region, that gives me a vested interest in anything positive that would be going on over there. Please continue!

Thank you! Finally someone that gets it! =) I'm a Petroleum Engineering major at the University of Texas, and it is so frustrating to talk to people that just don't understand what energy is all about. Spread the knowledge!

Also, if you're interested in the transition from an oil-based energy system to alternative energy systems, I'd recommend picking up a book called "The End of Oil." It's cheap on Amazon

Anyone who's read my posts knows I pretty much stand in JBodine's corner but I'd like to address Ellie's fear of thread jacking. I can only speak for myself, but as far as I'm concerned, this is an unnecessary fear. I like having commentary on my pages. The more commentary, the more traffic. Traffic is good. I prefer the commentary stay on topic but I'll live with rabbit trails if it keeps up the traffic.

I may be mistaken, but haven't all strip mining techniques in the coal industry been outlawed for years? (Many more than a couple) Batteries are a terrible waster of energy and production is an awful creator of poisonous by-products. My home state of Oklahoma was strip mined for decades but they've all been shut down and now all coal production in OK is 'hole in the ground' mining. Currently residing in CA and Elk Grove just South of Sacramento--all new housing has solar tiles incorporated into construction. Local mandate? I believe. I'll have to look into it deeper. Also, for a decade now, the earth is cooling, not warming. Why did the doomsayers change their language from global warming to climate change? How are we ever going to prevent climate change? Isn't that why its called 'climate?'

I like the idea of micro 'whatchyacallit.' I like anything that decentralizes political power. I still think oil is the least polluting of the energy options aside from nuclear at this point.

They still strip mine in Wyoming and Nevada, not sure about Montana.

Thank you for addressing that Judgebob, at least on your blog. It's good to know. But I have no idea how Katie feels about one long back and forth on her blog on her watch. For that I'll keep it brief - I also plan to do a global warming myths and theories post on my blog, I am hoping you will visit if you wish....

I'm not familiar enough with strip mining to comment on it but thank you for bringing it up, I sure should learn more than I know now.

I do so wish you would post your sources when you say the Earth has been cooling - the accepted data proves exactly the opposite. I believe I have posted to death on your blog links to the published data - again I think this should be moved to your blog to be discussed but again, evidence please!

Good to talk again though JudgeBob, you are a great person to chat with!

Sorry to comment again (now I'm really threadjacking, sorry) but the issue of climate change is an important one - let me quote a beloved teacher I had in 6th grade.

A boy raised his hand in class and asked her, "Why did people think the Earth was flat - were they stupid"? Well she responded that, imagine 200 years from now - kids would say, "why did people get their teeth drilled for cavities - we now have this pill that gets rid of them with no pain - were they stupid? They weren't stupid, it just hadn't been discovered yet".

Her point is very valid here today - global warming scientists are being asked to immediately explain a phenomenon that is still being studied. Results of studies aren't like instant coffee, JudgeBob. Look at cancer research - all this time and we still have no cure for it!! It takes huge amounts of time to understand things like this.

The Earth has indeed been warming but the term confuses people - because in some places it results in colder weather (like here in Massachusetts - it's July 4th and expected 50 degrees tonight, brrrrrrrr, I'm still wearing my fleece)! because the jet stream is being disrupted by the melting ice and the freshwater reducing the salinity of the ocean.

The term climate change is just about semantics really, but the scientists wanted to describe this phenomenon of weather becoming so much more volatile and hard to predict. If you're not seeing it now with your own two eyes, you will eventually.

ps I'll find some links for you (although I already posted some for you if I remember right)

Here

http://www.examiner.com/x-13886-New-Haven-County-Environmental-Policy-Examiner~y2009m7d6-Solar-Physicist-Predicts-Ice-Age-What-happened-to-global-warming

Climate change/global warming is driven by the sun. Those who study the sun have better tools for predicting global temperatures than do climatologists. Even so, top climatologists (not the media touted top but the cream of the crop extrapolated by their work and predictions) agree that the climate is driven by the sun. So, follow this guy's predictions and compare them to Prince Charles' and Al Gore's predictions along with their cloud of government money grabbing experts and let's just see which is more accurate. Global cooling or violent, unpredictable weather changes. This one says the sun's activity is lessening and therefore global cooling. If the solar activity becomes more active again, global warming.

Hi again Judgebob! Thank you for your response - let me make a few points:

1. You're confusing published, peer reviewed scientific articles with news articles. The Examiner is not a scientific journal - it's an online media source. HUGE difference. The link you furnished has no scientific validity whatsoever.

If there are published scientific studies within the article, please provide a link to them or at least the author of the study!

2. We never ever use the word "predict" in science. We use terms like "forecast", "estimate" etc.

3. Al Gore and Prince Charles are not scientists. Al Gore is a rancher and politician - Charles is the Prince of Wales. What they do or do not say is irrelevant here.

Please provide actual scientific data - I hope you're not getting snowed into beleiveing that non-scientists can actually tell you what's going on!

I say we go back to scratching pictographs on cave walls. LOL.

It would be really nice if Americans stopped attacking environmental issues BACKWARDS.

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